Talk:Alawites

Nusayris is not an insult

As far as I know Nusayris is not an insult

as the article say and repeat

the name was driven from Ibn Nusayr [1] Carnegie6 (talk) 01:16, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

Muslims don't like to be called Muhammedans, that doesn't mean they don't like Muhammed. FunkMonk (talk) 01:37, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

@Carnegie6 @FunkMonk That term is mostly used by the detractors of the Alawites. One possible reason is that Nusayri has a very similar pronunciation to an expression that means "the little Christians", mocking their closeness to the Middle Eastern Christians and the observance of their religious holidays. TheJoyfulTentmaker (talk) 03:26, 27 January 2024 (UTC)

It is used primarily as a slur, as the article itself notes (with reference). GhostOfNoMan 11:44, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

The Shrine is the best picture we have in Commons that represents the Alawites

The Shrine of Khidr in Samandag, Turkey

I disagree with @FunkMonk on his decision to revert the Shrine picture to the Zulfiqar, as the page image. The Zulfiqar is too broad to be used to symbolize Alawites. Here are some examples of articles in the Arabic Wikipedia that use the Zulfiqar:

• Muqtada al-Sadr * Hamdanid dynasty * Buyid dynasty * Twelver Shia * Alawites (sect) * Iran * Ismaili * Hezbollah * Hasan ibn Ali * Husayn ibn Ali * Ali al-Sistani * Ruhollah Khomeini * Ja'far al-Sadiq * Category:House of Fatima * Nahj al-Balagha * Kaysanites * Waqifites * Shaykhis * Sharif al-Radi * Muhammad Baqir al-Hakim * Fatima bint Asad * Idrisid dynasty * Karbala * Amir al-Mu'minin * Muhammad Baqir * Sayyid * Ali Zain al-Abidin * Musa al-Kazim * Ali al-Ridha * Muhammad al-Jawad * Ali al-Hadi * Qom * Ahl al-Bayt * Category:Shia books * Imamate * Tawhid in Islam * Ayatollah * Muhsin ibn Ali * Mahdi * Twelve Imams * Amal Movement * Islamic jurisprudence * Fatima's Quran * Ali's Quran * Mut'ah marriage * Zaydiyyah

On the other hand, the shrine is a very typical Alawite Maqam, it is very representative. Not just this particular Shrine, but these kinds of Shrines (or Maqams, or Ziyarahs). There are hundreds of these in the Levant, and this is a very characteristic Alawite Shrine because of the typical white paint and the typical architecture.

One other reason that made me think this picture has great representative value is this summarized quote from Sevan Nisanyan, who is knowledgeable on these matters, from a video:

“ I didn't know much about the Nusayris until I turned 30. I've traveled extensively in Turkey since a young age, but I was unaware of the Nusayris, especially in the southern region around Antakya, Hatay. In this area, there's a significant population of Arabic-speaking people who identify themselves as Alawites. Their traditions and beliefs are quite distinct from other Alevi communities in Turkey. Interestingly, they have white-painted tombs scattered throughout the mountains, resembling Greek churches. They are often situated in picturesque locations, perched on the mountaintops, hillsides, or even near the entrance of caves. The exteriors of these tombs are painted in a striking white color, similar to the aesthetics of Rum (Greek) churches in Greece. The architectural design includes domes, creating a visual similarity to the small shrines and churches seen in Greek landscapes. These places, unlike typical Alevi practices in other parts of Turkey, involve unique rituals. The term "Nusayri" is used by outsiders; the locals don't appreciate it. There's a debate about the meaning of the term, with some suggesting it originated from an Arab figure in the 12th century. However, it is also considered an insult, meaning "small Christians" or "Christian." The Nusayris have their unique beliefs, and stories suggest that they either converted from Christianity or share similarities with Christians due to historical interactions. ”

I would like to have a constructive discussion on this subject that we can learn from each other. Also, I would like to invite @PaFra and @Solmissos to the discussion if they have time, due to their expertise on the subject. TheJoyfulTentmaker (talk) 02:35, 27 January 2024 (UTC)

Again, the most universal symbol for Alawites is zulfiqar, just like the cross is for Christianity. Having a random shrine of no particular significance doesn't really add anything to the broader understanding of the group. This photo is even tagged with "Sufism" on Commons, which is unrelated to Alawites, and makes it uncertain what it belongs to. But if it's indeed Alawite and not Turkish Alevite, it's a perfect representation of that under the section on Alawites in Turkey, where it is now. FunkMonk (talk) 08:10, 27 January 2024 (UTC)

@FunkMonk Thank you for the response, but I'm not sure you have addressed some my points above. The Zulfiqar is a symbol of Alawites, that is true. The problem is the Zulfiqar is also a symbol of Shia Muslims, which is a much larger group. Even if we consider the Alawites a subgroup of Shia Muslims, it is not the best representation to use the same symbol for all subgroups. Something that uniquely represents that subgroup is definitely better. Regarding the Shrine being Alevite instead of Alawite: Definitely not. If you do some research, Samandag (Suweydiah), where the Shrine is located, is a city near the Turkey-Syria border and the city has one of the most significant Alawite populations in the region. The Turkish vs. non-Turkish distinction is artificial: For many centuries all the present-day countries with significant Alawite populations belonged to a single empire with no borders between them. Regarding this being only a random Shrine: as I say, this characteristic repeats itself all over the Levant. It is a typical Alawite Shrine because of the white paint and the dome. There are many shrines like this in Syria, too. I'm okay if we find a picture of a different Alawite Shrine, or something that represents the Alawites, but not too broadly all Shia Muslims. At least, are you okay with me using a "multiple picture" template and adding the Shrine under the Zulfiqar? I will update the caption to clarify that it is not this specific Shrine, but the common existence of shrines with this architecture is why the picture is there. Thanks again for the constructive discussion. TheJoyfulTentmaker (talk) 01:34, 28 January 2024 (UTC)

I know, but since both ethnically Turkish Alevis and ethnically Arab Alawites exist in Turkey, it is more important to have solid sourcing than for example images from Syria or Lebanon, where only Arab Alawites exist. I think we would need some more views on this either way, as I still don't see why any random shrine should be used as the main image, unless it has anciennity or a more universal significance. FunkMonk (talk) 16:10, 2 February 2024 (UTC)

@FunkMonk Actually, I just found a reference (Full text available via the Wikipedia Library) that establishes that this is indeed an Alawite shrine, and it is more than a random shrine: "In terms of spiritual potency the Khidr ziyarat are regarded as the most powerful. Particularly, the Khidr ziyara in Samandag ̆ (see Figure 2) needs to be mentioned in this context, because among the Alawi it has acquired the status of a pilgrimage site equal to Mecca." TheJoyfulTentmaker (talk) 01:25, 3 February 2024 (UTC)

This is a page about Alawites, the group, so an image with some people in it is immediately an improvement on an image with no people in it. An abstract symbol is not a good representation of a group. Britannica, a useful tertiary reference point, has a picture of a group of people. As for the zulfiqar image itself, where is it even from? It looks user generated, and user generated calligraphic images are now proscribed by MOS:CALLIGRAPHY. Iskandar323 (talk) 16:58, 2 February 2024 (UTC)

Regime?

I removed the use of the word "regime" because it seems loaded.ItsRainingCatsAndDogsAndMen (talk) 14:30, 27 January 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 29 March 2024

This topic is extremely incorrect. The Alawites do not believe imam Ali to be an incarnation of god 120.21.186.112 (talk) 13:54, 29 March 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. M.Bitton (talk) 15:20, 29 March 2024 (UTC)

Etymology - what does "Alawi" mean?

Ironically, the "Etymology" section of this article doesn't address the actual etymology of the word, only discussing alternative names and how and when it came to be used. It needs to explain what the word actually means. GeoEvan (talk) 06:33, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

"Minority with respect to what?"

@TheJoyfulTentmaker this is not an OR. I did not make that term and you don't get to negotiate the already established facts stated in RS. It's mentioned in the already cited refs that they are a minority. "With respect to whom?", that's not my issue, you can do give the refs a visit if you're curious to know. But I can tell you that probably "with respect" to the area they reside in, not to the "world"? And when you reverted my edit, you reverted other changes I made that were not problematic, so you might need to remove the problematic words manually without reverting the whole edit in the future in order not to make this an edit war. Thx. ☆SuperNinja2☆ TALK! 01:17, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

@Super ninja2 Thank you for starting this discussion. Unfortunately, I still don't see any of these changes as an improvement over the existing version. When a source refers to them as 'minority,' it is viewing them from the perspective of a single country. On Wikipedia, however, we need to consider a global viewpoint and adhere to WP:NPOV. I'd be interested to hear the rest of the community's thoughts. TheJoyfulTentmaker (talk) 01:32, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

When a source refers to them as 'minority,' it is viewing them from the perspective of a single country. On Wikipedia, however, we need to consider a global viewpoint and adhere to WP:NPOV.

u cant be serious

I don't mind discarding the word "minority". I was just answering your question and explaining my point. ☆SuperNinja2☆ TALK! 01:43, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

What we have to do is only to follow what the sources say, that is the very basis of Wikipedia. "Global viewpoint" is not mentioned in any guidelines, and seems like a home-cooked criterion, and is therefore irrelevant. Alawites are unanimously described as a minority group, in the sense that in all countries they exist in they are a religious minority. FunkMonk (talk) 01:43, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

That is true today. In the past, there were instances when they were not, such as in the Alawite State. So, my editorial judgement is that it is not the best short description we can use to describe this subject. TheJoyfulTentmaker (talk) 01:47, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

Again, what do the sources say? WP:verifiability, not truth. FunkMonk (talk) 02:54, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

To clarify, I think there is no factual controversy about either version under discussion: they both are true and verifiable. My point is maybe better explained in MOS:LEADREL rather than WP:NPOV. It is true that they are a minority sect in Syria and Turkey, they are an esoteric sect, and they are an ethnoreligious group. The question is, which of these should we emphasize in the lead and in the short description if we are writing an encyclopedia with a global audience? I acknowledge that this may be a matter of judgement at this point, so I'll leave the rest to the community consensus. TheJoyfulTentmaker (talk) 05:02, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

and they are an ethnoreligious group

they are not an ethnoreligious group. they are arabs. ☆SuperNinja2☆ TALK! 05:16, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

I've restored it, as it is supported by the reference already in place:

While identifying as a branch of Shi’a Islam, Alawites are a distinct ethno-religious community with a long history in the region, dating back millennia.

Ref (under 'Historical context').

There are other more scholarly sources that refer to the group as 'ethnoreligious', too, e.g. Solidarity theologies and the (re)definition of ethnoreligious identities: the case of the Alevis of Turkey and Alawites of Syria. GhostOfNoMan 07:32, 30 December 2024 (UTC)